Date: 2010-10-24 03:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] radiumhead.livejournal.com
haha, thats it EXACTLY.

Personally, the only reason I voted for him was that he wasnt John McCain. I wouldve voted for any democrat at all.

Date: 2010-10-24 11:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pope-guilty.livejournal.com
I take extreme exception to the idea that anybody who could be described as "hard left" would have positive feelings toward Obama.

Date: 2010-10-25 04:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dcart.livejournal.com
I don't understand it, but I saw an awful lot of it in 2008.

Date: 2010-10-25 04:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pope-guilty.livejournal.com
Calling Obama fans "hard left" basically disappears down the memory hole anybody to the left of, oh, say, maybe a liiiitle to the left of center. I mean, seriously, do you believe that the progressive wing of the Democratic Party is as far left as it goes?

The hard left despises Obama for being a capitalist whose policies in the GWOT are more or less the same as his predecessor's, for being another Bill Clinton accommodationist who's more interested in cuddling up to and making pointless compromises with a right wing that despises him and wants him dead than any sort of actual left agenda. He's a Democrat, which is bad enough, and he's the worst kind of Democrat- the sort that fears the Republicans more than their own constituency.

Date: 2010-10-25 04:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dcart.livejournal.com
I'm talking about people well left of the Green Party. I'm talking about people who have well developed critiques of national and international capitalism (and international socialist organizations, too). They were damned fond of Obama.

Date: 2010-10-25 05:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pope-guilty.livejournal.com
Yeah, I would tend to reject the notion that hardline anticapitalists are/were big fans of centrist capitalists, sorry.

Date: 2010-10-25 06:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dcart.livejournal.com
Ah, yes. Rejecting reality when it doesn't conform to your ideology. I hope you'll outgrow that someday, young man. If not you may end up like Michael Savage and other once stalwart leftists who defected to the other side. Maybe you'll even throw your own tea party.

Date: 2010-10-25 06:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pope-guilty.livejournal.com
Yes, being to the left of the Democrats means that you'll someday be a fascist. Good analysis there, really demonstrates why the Democrats are such an unstoppable force.

Date: 2010-10-25 12:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dcart.livejournal.com
You might try spending a little more time reading what people actually write and say and a little less time shaping it to flatter your ego. Being in touch with reality is a handy skill. I wrote absolutely nothing like your statement above. I'm well to the left of the Democrats and have been since before you were old enough to vote.

Date: 2010-10-25 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pope-guilty.livejournal.com
You'll excuse me, I hope, if I am skeptical of such a claim from somebody who thinks the hard left likes Obama.

Date: 2010-10-25 08:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dcart.livejournal.com
Skepticism is great. Given your apparent preference for making declarations of opinion as if they are fact and apparent disinterest in actually engaging people in dialog, I'm content to excuse you from anything you'd like. You can't begin to make any change in the world until you're aware of the actual facts on the ground around you. Life is complex. People are full of contradictions. They rarely fall into simplistic, black and white categories or dichotomies. Deciding that you are the final arbiter of reality and that the world and the people in it must conform to your ideas and preconceptions is folly. It's a folly that is no less common amongst political ideologues than it is amongst religious fundamentalists. That is a fact for which I am quite grateful. That particularly flaw in the way fundamentalists and ideologues engage the world seems to prevent both groups from being effective enough to actually gain the control they seek, regardless of the supposed altruism or libertarianism in their professed creed.

Date: 2010-10-25 09:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pope-guilty.livejournal.com
Okay, fine, let's get empirical. Can you provide me with actual evidence of actual hard leftists- not Democrats, not liberals, not "progressives", but actual leftists- who think Obama is some kind of messiah, demigod, or whatever?

I mean, crap, the linked post uses the phrase "hard-left liberal", which is the stupidest, most self-contradictory nonsense I've seen in days.

Date: 2010-10-25 09:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dcart.livejournal.com
"Hard-left liberal" is problematic. You're right.

I would really love to be able to just put you in touch with some people I know who are truly leftists and let them explain their own support for Obama. You can imagine that "hey, some guy you don't know on the internet wants to talk to you about this" probably isn't going to fly. If any of them made public livejournal posts or blog posts that I can find, I'd be happy to link them. I'm not saying they thought he was the messiah or whatever. I know several people who expressed support for him and definite, overt preference for him over candidates like Kucinich and Edwards (who clearly aren't leftists, but are also clearly to the left of Obama).

In practice, I'm a social democrat. The small "d" there is intentional. You could peg me as only being a few steps to the left of Bernie Sanders. Basically, I'm just left enough that liberals think I'm a nut and just not-left enough that the "hard left" doesn't see enough difference between me and liberals. It wasn't that far of a stretch for me to support someone like Edwards because of his support for real, actual universal health care and his framing of issues in terms of people who work for a living vs people who are primarily investor/owner/capitalists. I'm not naive enough to think there's no difference between Obama and McCain. In the real world, in the lives of everyday people, the difference is huge, even if both support the same fundamental organization of our society. But being able to translate that understanding into any enthusiasm for Obama was just not in my wheelhouse.

Date: 2010-10-25 09:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pope-guilty.livejournal.com
I would really love to be able to just put you in touch with some people I know who are truly leftists and let them explain their own support for Obama.

Woah, woah, if we redefine down to "supporting" Obama, then hell, that's easy- I support Obama simply because I think he's less of a piece of shit than McCain would've been.

I'm not saying they thought he was the messiah or whatever.

That was in fact the point that this argument was about.

Date: 2010-10-25 09:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dcart.livejournal.com
My first comment to you was in response to your statement that you found it hard to believe that anyone on the hard left could be described as having positive feelings for Obama. "Positive feelings". Not "both guys are pieces of shit, but Obama is less of a piece of shit". These people had actual positive feelings for Obama. Some of them, like the author of the linked post above, went to rallies, volunteered, etc. They are both "hard leftists" in their analysis and beliefs and yet had positive feelings for Obama.

My best theory as to why is that some of them got a little too caught up in the spectacle of the US electing a black man as president. But even that, I think, only describes some of them.

Date: 2010-10-25 09:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pope-guilty.livejournal.com
I strongly dislike Obama, but I voted for him and encouraged people to do the same. Unless the Republicans have aneurysms and nominate somebody better, I'll be doing the same in 2012. I think he's the least worst. That doesn't mean I like him.

Date: 2010-10-25 04:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dcart.livejournal.com
I was an Edwards supporter. I'm glad he lost, but I still believe in the agenda and the framing he gave it. I did not understand why my (often even more left than me) friends all fell in love with Obama so early. I had low expectations for his presidency. The funny thing, though, is that the areas where he has most impressed me are some of the ones where I most expected to be disappointed and vice versa. Nearly halfway through this term, I'm still not sure what to make of him on policy. On politics, he's turned out to be a lot more inept than I'd have ever guessed.

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